Karl Rove is a faggot

[sandman]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sergeant_Zeno "Karl Rove’s father’s pure, solid gold cock ring!" Not joking: http://www.bmezine.com/news/guest/20070818.html

ha haa haaaaaaa!! Holy shiite that's funny. Rove was adopted by an in the closet piercing homo.

[Phix]

I'n is right.

[Stiffy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Julius Ignoring reality, describe a hypothetical situation in which you would conclude that you got it massively wrong and the liability was yours (eg Not: we were dumb for listening to the liberals). You never ever would and there lies the wreckage of you credibility in these discussion Stiffy.

Wait, what?

[iczorro]

I phrased that first sentence badly. I meant it was the "kid gloves", i.e. the half assed way we went into it, that was the problem. Liberals pushed it, and in deference to world opinion, we backed off from all out, get-it-done mode. We went in lukewarm. It's as much the conservatives' fault for not pushing the logic of the situation into the planning rooms.

All or nothing was how it should have been. Either Saddam should still be in power, with his sons and the Elite Republican Guard doing what they were doing before, which was pretty much what the Iraqi people are doing to themselves now, or we should be out of there with a base built and manned, like in Germany.

By the way, it's still not the majority of the Iraqis that don't want us there. In this case, it truly is the small (violently) vocal minority. I have friends in country right now. Joe Blow Iraqi has a much better life than before and is glad we came. They don't want us gone, they want their version of the Cryps and the Bloods to stop killing everyone in the area.

Figure out what the fuck you're talking about, J. I expect better of you.

[Julius]

Shock and Awe was "half assed"?? If you say so. An absence of accurate assessment and forecast was the problem and that rests pretty squarely with the current administration. That is why your guys are stuck in the mud.

[Julius]

Quote: Originally Posted by Stiffy Wait, what?

Typo's granted I still wouldn't expect you to geddit.

[Stiffy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Julius Typo's granted I still wouldn't expect you to geddit.

I have as much desire to learn liberalese as I do Spanglish so speak clearly or go back to your criminal roo pimping enterprise.

[iczorro]

Quote: Originally Posted by Julius Shock and Awe was "half assed"?? If you say so. An absence of accurate assessment and forecast was the problem and that rests pretty squarely with the current administration. That is why your guys are stuck in the mud.

Way to look at less than a percent of what's happened over there in order to see what you want. Shock and Awe was also famously less shocking and awing than first reported.

What I want YOU to do now is take off your purple hippy glasses and actually read what I wrote above.

[maladjusted]

o hay look Julie ass is still a homo

[Julius]

Mal, quit wishing I'm a homo, you will never evar get near my ass.

I'n I wondered if your face looked like your av as you wrote that. Dude you're not going to like what I say here but dont take it personally, it is just a different opinion.

I reread your first post

Quote: Originally Posted by I'n Yes. It's the whiny liberal faggots that forced the kid gloves which are the problem. If we'd gone in with a smash and grab style, we'd have a 5,000 man peacekeeping force left there, rather than everyone in the military that has a free afternoon.

...and I can see what you are seeing. I still disagree.

It was that very smash and grab (even if it could have been more intense as you say) that opened up this can of worms. As fucked as Saddam was, he was a lynch-pin that kept some control on otherwise bitter opponents. To remove Saddam and not immediately replace him with a legit alternative "lynch pin" was folly. The oversite of this; the dismissal of the republican army (man anyone knows that was completely dumb) and the arrogant assumption that a US appointed gov could hold any legitimacy was pretty niaive. It was an unnecessary and misguided adventure to begin with.

Something needed to be done in response to 9/11, but not this. It was not only a mistake, but a poorly executed one.

Many people disagreed with starting this war. You call them "whining liberals" but there are an increasing number of "whining republicans" now who in hindsight can see that it was misguided. Most of the old crew (Rummy, Wolfowitz and now Rove) have slunk off or have begun to distance themselves from Bush.

Where's Osama dude? Those pricks are still strong and their fucking cancerous movement is still out there and possibly stronger. Yeah they haven't got another one through to the US and that is great I agree.

Also I'n your friends cant provide you with a balanced view... I'll tell you why. In their minds they have to justify why they are there so they select evidence to justify it "There must be a reason to warrant this death and insanity." Any Iraqi that affiliates with the US soldiers and speaks English is not "Joe Blow Iraqi" they already have strong bias and possibly an agenda of pleasing Americans to get protection etc. I would agree that many would not want you guys to leave now and make it even worse with the unforecasted civilian massacres that would occur.

Soldiers in the field are going to have pro-war bias, despite the exceptions of the many who have returned and argued against this war. I'm certain that non-military people would tell a very different story to your buddies of what the average Iraqi thinks.

"Smash and Grab" at any level of magnitude was never going to work. A whole civilization was destabilized and that was not anticipated by driven Bush administration staff who believed their own bullshit. I dont have a solution. Noone does because there probably isn't one. The problem shouldn't have been gotten into in the first place. Those that we've call "whining liberals" will probably appear very wise in years to come.

[Stiffy]

Jewlius, seriously, you've been dipping too far into the liberal slop again.

[Julius]

Quote: Originally Posted by Stiffy Jewlius, seriously, you've been dipping too far into the liberal slop again.

Whatevar the case, I have kept up on my pr0n collecting.

[Phix]

What I'n meant by "smash and grab", i think, is the following:

The U.S. military went in... destroyed the Iraqi army... And spent months pretending that the war was over while all that happened was an insurgency started, and it wasn't taken seriously. While at the same time, bleeding hearts were whining and crying about civilian deaths, the U.S. military had it's Rules of Engagement set so high that sometimes fighting back, even when being fired upon, wasn't allowed. THAT was a mistake.

The military should have kept up as if a full blown out hot war was going on (because it was) and if someone starts shooting you from a mosque, flatten it. Instead of calling up your CO's CO to ask "pretty please can we yell harsh words back?"

The years of strict ROE caused the insurgents to be emboldened, along with assholes from Iran and Syria allowing a floodgate of assholes in with bombs. Borders should have been patrolled, and anything crossing not at a check point should have been wiped out. Even if it was a gay goat herder and a herd of gay goats. etc.

This mistake was thinking the war had become an occupation while it was still a war.

We complained about this at the time. If Shane hadn't been drunkentweaker purge happy you would be able to see.

I still think Osama's a cave painting in a cave below Tora Bora. And if he isnt' the reason why we don't have him is because the Pakistanis wouldn't allow us across the border while his cronies were skipping and jumping like the boy diddling fairies they are into the hinterlands of Pakistan.

Personally I think we should have told Pakistan in December 2001 "We're chasing them into part of your country where even YOU don't have control. Help us out, get out of the way, or become a target. Your choice"

Instead we stop at the border like Rosco going after Bo and Luke saying "Dang it! They crossed the county line!" And stomp our feet waiting impatiently for the Pakis to do what's right.

Yes they made mistakes... But see the difference is, we're still behind the operation to crush terrorist wannabes and their supporters. While people like you Julius would rather disarm and curl up into a ball and close your eyes while wishing the bad guys would just disappear if we ignore them.

I'm still behind the military operations. Yes hindsight has shown the errors that were made, but show me a war where errors didn't happen.

[Stiffy]

[iczorro]

[quote=Phix]I still think Osama's a cave painting in a cave below Tora Bora. And if he isnt' the reason why we don't have him is because the Pakistanis wouldn't allow us across the border while his cronies were skipping and jumping like the boy diddling fairies they are into the hinterlands of Pakistan.

Personally I think we should have told Pakistan in December 2001 "We're chasing them into part of your country where even YOU don't have control. Help us out, get out of the way, or become a target. Your choice"

Instead we stop at the border like Rosco going after Bo and Luke saying "Dang it! They crossed the county line!" And stomp our feet waiting impatiently for the Pakis to do what's right. /QUOTE]There are things I worked on in Bahrain that were a direct line part of this. I don't know that I'm allowed to talk about them, but Julius, your reasoning is wrong. I'll only say that Phix has it basically right.

[iczorro]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phix I still think Osama's a cave painting in a cave below Tora Bora. And if he isnt' the reason why we don't have him is because the Pakistanis wouldn't allow us across the border while his cronies were skipping and jumping like the boy diddling fairies they are into the hinterlands of Pakistan. Personally I think we should have told Pakistan in December 2001 "We're chasing them into part of your country where even YOU don't have control. Help us out, get out of the way, or become a target. Your choice" Instead we stop at the border like Rosco going after Bo and Luke saying "Dang it! They crossed the county line!" And stomp our feet waiting impatiently for the Pakis to do what's right.

There are things I worked on in Bahrain that were a direct line part of this. I don't know that I'm allowed to talk about them, but Julius, your reasoning is wrong. I'll only say that Phix has it basically right.

[Julius]

In response first to Phix:

Quote: Originally Posted by Phix What I'n meant by "smash and grab", i think, is the following:..

If that is what I'n meant then I agree in part. The execution of the war would have been more successful and positioned the following occupation on much better footing. All that premature "mission accomplished" shit evokes frightning images of Mal's sex life.

You haven't addressed the destabilzation of the communities of people living withing the Iraq borders. The country is splintering and this was not a contingency that was effectively planned for, if considered at all.

Also Osama, dead or alive is a fucking Elvis to these pricks. It doesn't matter too much if he has become the latest neolithic art work, there is a movement of fuckers out there that is still going for it. The Iraq war, from it's mutating rationales, stumbling execution and pretty crap trajectory appears to have spurred them on and energised there movement.

"Smashinbg and grabbing" in that light doesnt add up to much. It only refers to what "might have" been done better. It doesn't address the inaccurrancy of the approach of "invading Iraq to destroy Al Qaeda".

Regime change in the Bush fashion: To me its as naive as a mechanic giving someone a brain transplant with no reference to medical practice... "Bit like changing an engine, just pull it out and stick in a new one..." It dont work like that... that is what many people of all kinds of political beliefs and national backgrounds were "whining" about, they were saying "Look dickhead, you dont do it like that." The Bush administration behaved like an arrogant apprentice and just went ahead and did what they wanted despite informed cautioning (eg "whining") Now they are wearing the consequences.

Last thing, dude you know I aint a pacifist, I just think it was a dumb thing done dumbly.

[Julius]

I'n I agree with everything Phix has said in the part of his comment that you posted. You're a little too quick to say my reasoning is wrong but you'll get plenty of empty support from no-brainers for saying that.

I know that you have a vantage point on this situation that would probably blow me away, based on your own involvment and experiences. Believe it or not, I respect that and I know that I cant see everything; just as sure as Mal can't see his own penis - there are blindspots in every argument. At least consider my views as I consider yours.

[maladjusted]

Quote: Julieass: (tried to delete) 'n I agree with everything Phix has said in the part of his comment that you posted. You're a little too quick to say my reasoning is wrong but you'll get plenty of empty support from no-brainers for saying that. I know that you have a vantage point on this situation that would probably blow me away, based on your own involvment and experiences. Believe it or not, I respect that and I know that I cant see everything; just as sure as Mal can't see his own penis - there are blindspot in every argument. At least consider my views as I consider yours.

Look you douchebag, I don't care if you like to fuck male or female kangaroos.

Your political views are so fucked as to be laughable. I do not give a shit what you think on pretty much any topic.

ha ha fat joke lol

[iczorro]

Quote: Originally Posted by Julius If that is what I'n meant then I agree in part. The execution of the war would have been more successful and positioned the following occupation on much better footing. All that premature "mission accomplished" shit evokes frightning images of Mal's sex life.

Here's something I bet you didn't know. "Mission Accomplished" was not a banner put up by Bush or anyone in his administration to say we were done with the war in Iraq. It was the Ship's Motto for the USS Lincoln for that deployment.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dan Bartlett There was never a more benign incident that turned into a bigger messaging problem than “Mission Accomplished.” It set the wrong tone for what became a protracted, difficult mission. If there was ever a do-over, that would be it. It literally was their mission motto, “Mission Accomplished.” They’d been on the longest-ever deployment of an aircraft carrier. We put up a banner, and that’s what it said.

http://men.style.com/gq/features/full?id=content_5737

This is just to illustrate my main point, which is that you do not know what you're talking about. I understand how you could have the opinions you have based on the information you have. But your information is incomplete. You're claiming a winning bet based off a Sportscenter highlight from the losing team.

I'm not saying it wasn't badly handled, I'm saying it's better than not having handled it at all.

So here's my question for you. You've pretty consistantly pointed out the perceived shortcomings of the planning of this war. What would you have done differently? If it had been up to you, would Saddam still be in power, status quo maintained? Gone harder after Osama in Paki? (Wouldn't have mattered, but...) Sat on your hands and done nothing? What do you suggest we do now? Do you have a solution in mind, or are you only here to point out faults? Cause if all you wanna do is complain, email yourself. The audience will be much more receptive.